~Interview with Ajay

Reprinted with permission by the Israeli alternative monthly Haim Aherim (www.altlife.co.il)

In March 2004, we took part in a meditation retreat with our friend and teacher Ajay Singh in Dharamsala, India. Since we knew we would be coming back home to Israel soon after the retreat, we took the opportunity to tape an informal conversation with him. Maybe we felt it would be a way to take him home with us, or even the first step to actually bringing him to Israel for the first time. The following dialogue came out of that conversation.

Ajay, what kind of teachings actually happen here?

There's not so much a teaching, more a kind of platform for finding one’s own way. What is helpful for oneself.

So it's not so much about any specific technique…?

We need to have a base, so we have this vipassana base, we use it to try to find our own way, that is the main thing – to find our own way.

What do you bring to these gatherings?

I bring myself. I have no idea beforehand, nothing at all, and then something comes. It’s not planning, though some part of it is planning because we have to plan something, the place, the setting, and then let the not-planning act on the plot. So we just plan half and then half comes later.

You are saying that the point is to find one’s own way. But many teachers, past and present, have offered very specific methods or paths, which they teach and write about in books. How does that connect with what you are saying about everyone needing to find their own way?

It depends on the intention of the teacher. If the guru wants followers, of course he has to have a path, which involves many things, methods, guidelines, beliefs... But I think in the long run such methods lead to a kind of slavery. Any following becomes slavery. The most important thing is for each person to discover their own way to their spiritual growth. I think often teachers don't really consider our uniqueness as human beings, so they try to identify a common way based on their own experience.

As humans we have infinite possibilities. The moment you ask someone to do only certain things, only certain practices, you narrow these possibilities, and this is not respecting the god inside us, not respecting the vastness of us.

And what do you think about all these spiritual books that so many of us buy and read and find useful…?

In the beginning, to engage oneself in the search books can be helpful. Because in the beginning you do not have enough courage to take up practice or to actually engage in any kind of spiritual seeking, so maybe by reading books you gather some courage. But there is a kind of exchange that is very unique and special. It can happen between two people, in a one-to-one talk, for example. It’s about two energies reaching each other, and something comes out of that. To me it feels that books are not helpful there.

And what about the practices themselves, meditation, yoga, all these disciplines that we take on? What are we really getting out of them?

You see, mainstream culture is not telling us that these things you mentioned, these spiritual practices, are any good. Society is interested in worldly things, in worldly achievement. The common attitude is that meditation, retreating from "normal" life, coming to India, etc, is escaping from the world. You can think of it this way: maybe the real benefit of these things is that they strengthen us, they help us gain more courage, so that we can act against the power of society. Practices help to grow a kind of inner strength, you might even say we let ourselves be weirdos in the eyes of society. And this kind of strength makes it possible to trust our own way, to be ourselves.

Hold on a minute. We’ve all been practicing for years… Do you mean to tell me it was all in vain, only to develop trust in myself?

Don’t underestimate the importance of that kind of inner strength. We don’t give credit to what a strong influence the outside world has on us. An authentic inner voice, independence of mind are not such commonplace things. But of course there are also many levels in our growth. And certainly, practices offer many different benefits to many people.

You speak of a kind of process in which we first go against the grain, gain some inner strength, and all this in order to “be ourselves”. What does this actually mean?

When we think of ourselves, we generally do it from the eyes of other people. We say: “I'm so and so,” “I'm a good person.” But we don’t say it because we know, but because others have said so. Dorry has told me, or Chris. So all of our knowledge, whatever we know about ourselves, is from the eyes of others. And they may not be right. Because if Dorry needs something from me, she will speak well of me. So there is no truth in that, less truth. Being oneself means to see oneself naked, not from the eyes of others.

The thing is we have a closed eye towards ourselves, we want to always be good, for example, not to see the darker sides. We prefer to stay blind to some aspects of ourselves and open to others. When honesty comes we are open to everything within ourselves, and then we know our personality: “ah, this is how I am, this is how I behave, this is how I respond, this is me.” In this way we know when our reactions come entirely from within, we know that the other person is only a trigger to something inside. Knowing our own personality in this way opens the possibility of sensing something that lies beyond the personality. So who is that? Trying to know that leads to recognizing the vastness, recognizing myself.

Is there a difference between recognizing myself and being myself?

Yes. Being myself means personality is still included. Seeing all these parts of myself allows me to know who I am in the sense of personality. But recognizing myself is deeper, it is recognizing the vastness that is beyond the individual personality. Recognition is of the vastness, not the personality.

Do we have to go through being ourselves in order to begin to recognize the vastness?

Yes, you have to go through being yourself, only then can you step back to a place that is deeper than the personality. Because if you don’t see your personality, if you don’t see yourself honestly, you are probably also still seeing from within your personality, with a filter.

…meaning projections?

Yes, projections.

If you are in some state of clarity about your reactions etc, then what?

If you are not always reacting, you can see that every situation is new. You see that whatever is happening now is entirely new, and has nothing to do with our projections and expectations. The point is that it is possible to see what really is, from the freshness, from the life, and not let the past govern our lives. Being oneself means not letting the past govern the life. Then we go beyond the tendencies into the vastness.

Why is it so difficult to recognize ourselves? What is standing in the way?

Ourselves. Because when we recognize ourselves we are very expansive, cannot possibly feel solid. But we want to feel solid, we are addicted to these roles and identities, we want to "be someone"… this is what stands in our way.

What is it for you to be a teacher?

Inside I never feel like a teacher. I always feel a friend, that’s all. I don't feel I know something, but that, by being a friend maybe something can be understood.

Do you think it would have made a difference if you would have felt you are a teacher?

The problem is that, for example, if I accept someone as a “teacher” the moment we talk about inner things, I allow myself to adopt his words, rather than letting them grow inside me. So being friends means you don’t have to adopt anything. You just listen and if they get rooted in you then maybe they have some value. It is not only another belief system.

I notice from my experience and also from other people that you never seem to give full answers to questions, and that you use metaphors or half finished sentences.

Yes, the reason is to allow this growth to take root. If I gave full answers to everything, then you wouldn't go through the process of letting things take root inside you. Adopted knowledge is like a stone, it has no roots, but when we allow our understanding to take root, our actions begin to change... But when understanding grows from inside, it's more trustworthy, more alive.

What is the difference between this process and psychological treatment, therapy?

I think psychoanalysis deals only with our psychological makeup. This makeup is investigated, addressed, from the perspective of psychology. And from this perspective, there is no choice but to simply create another psychology to replace the previous one. So there is a constant building going on. But treating ourselves spiritually, so to speak, comes from a deeper place, and though it may take a longer time, we are ultimately not looking to build anything up.

I’m interested in what you are saying about building up. It seems to me we do this all the time, naturally. But in my experience, it often feels I know something or see something clearly in myself, and then the whole thing collapses. I realize I've been totally wrong. And the feeling is that I've lost my ground, that the carpet has been pulled out from under me… can you say something about that?

Yes… carpet is pulled, you are left without a reference point. All the old beliefs, the old systems, are suddenly emptied of their value. This happens and then we need to find new values from this new understanding. And these will sprout from a deeper place.

But the feeling is that it keeps happening…I see that my new, apparently deeper understanding collapses too. I see that I’ve created another internal system, another set of views or ideas, without knowing it. Until the new one collapses too.

Yes. I think many many times we build these systems, truths, ways of understanding the world, and then we see that we have done that. That we have been building up again. This process happens over and over, because we can’t see everything all at once. And each time, there is more understanding.

And these breakdowns, are they a necessary part of the process? Or can the process be more linear for some people?

Yes, they are necessary. For most people.

Before you were speaking about being ourselves, not seeing ourselves from the eyes of others or through images that we create about ourselves and believe in. Is that actually possible? I mean, is it possible for us to just be… simple?

Maybe it’s difficult. But once you know that this building up – your self image or set of beliefs about the world – is actually causing you pain, causing you to feel separate or special – then you really want to let it go. You see that you don’t feel so good in that space that you’ve created.

So how can you let it go?

You can start to let go of the image of yourself when you see that it is there because there is something there that you like – you like feeling special, for example. Then you can start investigating the liking itself, what you are actually getting out of this image.

Because generally, all of these things inside us go on in the dark. As soon as we put your light then they stop.

As soon as…?

Yes. As soon as we put the light they disappear. They are not there. But sometimes it can feel like we are putting light, but we are not. We think we see, but we are not yet seeing.

So that’s an indication for us? When you really see something it drops away? I mean there can be a sense for a long time that I am seeing, that there is light, but actually ..

…there is no light… As soon as light is there then you see. You just see. Of course when you don’t yet know what light is, then sense of light will seem to you to be light. Sense of seeing will feel like you are seeing.

So what comes to me very strongly now is… the feeling of defeat. That I thought I was seeing clearly but now I understand that it was only a sense of seeing because there's been no change … so I feel I've been caught…

So maybe you can try to like this feeling of being caught? Liking being caught, actually, can help. Because the problem is not that you’ve been caught, but that you dislike it. But if you could like it, this would be freeing. Because the natural tendency is not to like the knowledge that we have been fooling ourselves.

Yes. So many times in this process with you, you tell me something, even very slight, and I feel the whole army inside is charged, mobilized.

Yes, yes, the whole defense mechanism. Shouting: how I can be like that? So then you actually accept and not accept at the same time. You say, “ah, yes I see, I haven’t been honest”, so you become happy, but at the same time the defense mechanism is saying: “ah, but this is not true. I am honest”. Whispering, very slowly and carefully, so that it’s not speaking loudly, so what you actually hear is: “this is not true.” So that’s what’s going on inside. So just to be careful of those whispers.

You know, it feels that there is, on some level, a kind of battle between us.

Yes, yes. But some people don’t show their resistance. Others show it, which is better. Because if you keep it inside, then maybe you also don’t see it is there.

Reprinted with permission by the Israeli alternative monthly Haim Aherim (www.altlife.co.il)